Marine Corps drill instructors represent one of the most legendary roles in the military. From the 1987 war movie "Full Metal Jacket" to their essential job of making new Marines at boot camp in 13-week cycles, the role has become iconic to the public and within squad bays alike.
Last month, Military.com and The Washington Post published a joint investigation into the mental health and personal struggles that have afflicted the drill instructor population. With my reporting partner, Kelsey Baker, we found that the high-stress environment for drill instructors was bleeding into some of their personal lives, causing depression, suicidal ideations, familial tension, sleep issues and increased alcohol use to cope.
We heard from leadership at both recruit depots. They said that the challenges long associated with the drill instructor role have improved over the last two years, citing recent data about reductions in suicide and misconduct for DIs, increased morale and other metrics the service says prove that point. They also outlined current processes for depot staff to receive mental health help.
Two sources who have been at the depots since these changes started said things have shifted for the better in some ways. The conversation about DI stressors was overdue, but they added that there are still underlying issues when it comes to mental health stigma, personal and familial stress, and a residual sense of being under a microscope when it comes to alleged misconduct.
Now, the question is this: As improvements are being made, will those changes fix long-standing structural problems affecting drill instructors -- and will the Corps continue to push for progress?
Host Drew F. Lawrence recaps Military.com and Washington Post reporting on the plight of drill instructors, with input from the other reporter who worked on the investigation, a former drill instructor, and three current leaders at the recruit depots.
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Additional Resources
Below is the data provided by the Marine Corps’ Training and Education Command regarding improvements at the depots:
At MCRD PI:
- There were no DI suicides aboard MCRD PI in 2024 or 2025. That is a 100% reduction in DI suicides compared to 2023 when the regiment experienced three suicides.
- From 2023 to 2025 DIs characterized as “high risk” on Force Preservation Council” (FPC) decreased by 14%. This reflects the individual DI’s ability to manage personal stressors as well as the commands commitment to ensuring the health and wellness of their Marines.
- From FY22 to the present there has been a 64% decrease in the number of DI misconduct allegations (156 in 2022 verse 56 in 2024). Sleep and wellness play a significant role in DI misconduct and this reduction reflects that more DIs are mentally and physically prepared to operate in the challenging recruit training environment.
- The number of Relief for Cause and Good of the Service DI reliefs have decreased by 41% from 2022 to 2024. This shows more DIs are completing a successful tour.
- 93% of new DIs accepted a referral to at least one behavioral, social, physical, or spiritual resource. This is a 5% increase from 2023. This speaks to stigma reduction and a culture of resource utilization.
- DEOCS survey data from 2023 to present: The below DEOCS protective factors are strongly linked to improved readiness, higher retention, and a lower likelihood of suicide.
Factors--
1. Work/Life balance: From 2023 to present, survey scores measuring work/life balance improved by an average of 33.25% across all 4 battalions.
2. Moderate to High Stress: From 2023 to present, survey scores measuring DIs’ experience of high to moderate stress decreased by an average of 11% across all 4 battalions.
3. Cohesion: From 2023 to present, survey scores measuring Cohesion improved by an average of 9% across all 4 battalions.
4. Connectedness: From 2023 to present, survey scores measuring connectedness improved by an average of 2.5% across all 4 battalions.
5. Engaged and Committed: From 2023 to present, survey scores measuring Engagement and Commitment improved by an average of 3% across all 4 battalions.
6. Morale: From 2023 to present, survey scores measuring Morale improved by an average of 23% across all 4 battalions.
- DI hours worked per week reduced on average 25% from 120 hours a week to 90 hours per week. This supports improved wellness.
- There was a 35% reduction in DI government vehicle crashes between 2023 (26 recorded events) and 2024 (17 recorded events).
- There was a 50% reduction in DI personal vehicle crashes between 2023 and 2024 that occurred while driving from or to duty on base.
At MCRDSD:
Although MCRDSD did not make this statement during the interview, I would like to provide the following information about MCRDSD. MCRDSD is currently working on obtaining additional statistics, which I will be able to share with you at a later date.
- MCRDSD has had zero DI suicides since December 2022, demonstrating a sustained trend of mental health stability. This reflects a strong and positive command climate, reinforced by leadership engagement, structured wellness initiatives, and access to mental health resources. While this is a promising indicator, MCRDSD remains committed to continuously evaluating and improving procedures to ensure drill instructors have the supportive environment and resources necessary for long-term success and well-being.
Below is the data provided by the Marine Corps’ Training and Education Command regarding their responses to the 2023 Marine Corps Inspector General assessment:
The IG report contains a list of “recommendations” at the end, including:
1. Methodology and philosophy changes needed to address the enduring MCRD microcultures and their negative impacts to the Recruit Training Process.
- Actions taken to eliminate toxic microcultures and reinforce positive command climate include:
(1) The establishment of MCRD and Regimental level touchpoints with Officers, 1stSgts, and Drill Instructor School (DISC) students and staff (e.g., Town Halls, Sensing Sessions) to share best practices and provide a forum to review training.
(2) Implementation of Leadership and Ethics Training into DISC Program of Instruction (POI).
(3) Conduct of regularly scheduled and regulated “Pick-up Briefs” and “Reset Training” to training company personnel.
(4) Establishment of the Leadership Summit Outpost Program for MCRD DIs and staff, taught by community counselors to address stress, depression, anger, etc.
2. The root causes (i.e., power-trip, ego, competition, personal gain, acceptance/loyalty, insecurity) that lead to DI misconduct. This effort must balance preserving the positive aspects of DI culture with addressing the long-standing causes that result in misconduct and unsafe situations.
- Actions taken to eliminate root causes:
(1) Senior enlisted leaders screened for proper mindset prior to assignment to RTR.
(2) Formalized assignment process for DISC instructors and quota billets to ensure commander involvement which rewards positive attributes.
(3) Ethics training implemented for all Drill Instructors at DISC.
(4) Ethics training implemented for all series commanders during Series Commander Course taught by DISC.
(5) Ethics training for company commanders implemented during the Company Commanders’ Course taught by DISC.
(6) Case studies presented and studied during DISC and Series Commander Course to show the dangers of ethical drift.
(7) Leaders are held accountable for ensuring that DI mental and physical health is maintained. Workload is monitored and DIs and company leadership are required to take time off during the training cycle.
3. Formal/informal chains of command at work on both MCRDs.
(1) Formalized assignment process for DISC instructors and quota billets to ensure commander involvement which rewards positive attributes.
(2) Senior enlisted leaders screened for proper mindset prior to assignment to RTR.
4. Internal and external manpower assignment policies
(1) Key billet rotations (i.e., Chief and Senior DIs between training Companies and Battalions).
(2) Work with manpower to get more second tour DIs to fill Chief Drill Instructor (CDI) billets.
(3) Cross-pollination of second tour DIs from each Depot for assignment to CDI and Senior Drill Instructor (SDI) roles will drive positive culture shifts.
(4) Engagements with Manpower & Reserve Affairs (M&RA) regarding officer screening, assignment, and reporting timelines aligned with supervision requirements.
5. Formalization/standardization of internal communication processes to address common functions (e.g., accountability, training, misconduct, emergencies, etc.) throughout the Recruit Training Process to facilitate sharing of best practices and cross-pollination.
(1) The establishment of MCRD and Regimental level touchpoints with Officers, and 1stSgts (e.g., Town Halls, Sensing Sessions) to share best practices and provide a forum to review training.
(2) Implementation of Leadership and Ethics Training into DISC, Series Commander Course, and Company Commander’s Course Programs of Instruction (POI).
(3) Conduct of regularly scheduled and regulated “Pick-up Briefs” and “Reset Training” to training company personnel.
6. Establishment of credible feedback mechanisms at both MCRDs and a process to periodically validate these mechanisms’ effectiveness.
Both MCRDs conduct after-action meetings at the conclusion of each training cycle to identify strengths or gaps which occurred during the training cycle. This information and best practices are disseminated to battalion and training company staffs.
7. Standardization of oversight organizations, methodologies, and training.
Policies/programs to ensure oversight and the provision of appropriate supervision include:
(1) Recruit Training Order, Master Training Schedule, and Physical Training Playbook review to ensure orders are nested appropriately.
(2) Collaboration to develop synergy between both DISCs for all POIs.
(3) Improved and extended the Series Commander Course curriculum and implemented a Company Commander’s Course.
(4) Conduct Senior Drill Instructor Course and Chief Drill Instructor Courses/Symposiums to develop personnel for those billets.
(5) Review and update Quality Assurance Evaluator (QAE) programs for scope and effectiveness.
(6) Conduct risk-informed DI/Corpsman placement in training areas.
(7) Publish Regimental policies which include personnel wellness considerations.
(8) Timely investigation and adjudication of misconduct allegations.
(9) Regularly inspect facilities and equipment for potential safety hazards.
8. Standardization of course offerings at both DI Schools and TECOM accreditation of each POI. A focus within this effort must include alignment of each DI School’s philosophy, methodology, and curriculum. MCRD leadership must facilitate these efforts by ensuring the appropriate instructor cadre is assigned to each DI School to ensure these efforts endure.
- Standardization between MCRDs currently exists. DI School is an MOS producing formal school with a POI approved by CG TECOM. TECOM policy requires the MCRDs to “mirror” each other to the greatest extent possible to ensure similar training experiences for DISC students. Methodology may vary slightly due to physical location of facilities (MCRDSD WFTBN is located aboard Camp Pendleton).
- There are several touch points where both PI and SD Recruit Training Regiments, which include the DI Schools, collaborate and sync with each other to ensure congruency in training and execution. These touch points include Curriculum Review Boards (CRBs) for every POI, the Entry Level Training Symposium (with participation by MCRD and TECOM staffs), and constant informal coordination/collaboration by Commanders, DI School Directors and staff. Additionally, each MCRD has a G-3 Training Division which assists and collaborates with each MCRDs’ Recruit Training Regiment and TECOM staff to ensure the best training is provided to DIs and all personnel who interact with recruits in any capacity.
9. Consideration of how MCRD personnel address basic trainees. The use of pejorative terms when addressing recruits can lead to DIs dehumanizing them, and such conduct sets the conditions for DI misconduct.
- Both MCRD Recruit Training Orders explicitly specify the authorized manner in which personnel address recruits. Violations are addressed via appropriate administrative and/or disciplinary means.
10. MCRD Parris Island should review its “Command and Feedback” policy regarding subordinate command authorities and determine if modifications are required. Leaders from both MCRDs should collaborate on the formation of best practices regarding the communication and decision-making processes surrounding DI misconduct.
(1) The Commanders of the MCRD, RTR, and Recruit Training Battalions were board-selected for their duties based on their experience. Communication requirements are outlined in applicable orders and directives.
(2) All substantiated misconduct that involves recruit abuse is required to be reported to the Commanding General.
(3) All Command Investigations are reviewed and closed out by the Commanding General.
(4) The Commanding General has established regular touchpoints with the Marines within RTR and routinely tours the area to gauge the effectiveness of Depot actions.
(5) Commanders within RTR have regular communication with their Marines and the Commanding General to ensure information gets to the appropriate personnel to facilitate decision making.
(6) All RTR Marines are briefed on the importance of making preventative corrections to catch actions early that may lead to misconduct later and make corrections. Drill Instructors are regularly awarded for this behavior.
(7) Laws and regulations restrict the range of an IG's responsibilities, and there are many issues IGs don't handle. Complainants who have other options for redress will be informed by IGs that the main goal of IG involvement is to guarantee that the complainant has received due process and the protection of their rights as stipulated by laws and regulations.
(8) Only when instructed by the commander do IGs carry out investigations. The investigation will focus on violations of policy or regulations. The commander may also direct an investigation into alleged claims of wrongdoing, unethical behavior, or poor management. Anyone can contact the IG verbally or in writing with a complaint or a request for help.
(a) IGs do not provide legal reviews or opinions - these are provided by the Staff Judge Advocate.
(b) IGs do not conduct criminal investigations - these are conducted by the Military Police and/or NCIS.
(c) IGs do not direct action. They may make suggestions to commanders, but commanders ultimately direct action.
11. M&RA should not assign Marines to either RTBNs or WFTBNs on orders less than 24 months.
- Defer to M&RA for response; M&RA is responsible for assignments.
12. M&RA should man both MCRDs’ company grade officer billets to their current “priority” manning precedence level (i.e., 95 percent of staffing goal). Further, M&RA and TECOM should determine which billets should be established as “protected” and manned at 100 percent.
- Defer to M&RA for response; M&RA is responsible for staffing.
13. TECOM and M&RA should establish a formal process for screening company grade officers for duty within RTR subordinate units to ensure only high-performing officers and/or those with demonstrated leadership abilities receive assignment there.
- Defer to M&RA for response.
14. TECOM should: 1) examine the MCRD San Diego recommendation of using an “encounter based staffing model” to generate funding and manpower for medical personnel supporting recruit training, 2) advocate for appropriate resourcing to mitigate identified risks, and 3) consider resourcing “green-side” billets to properly staff the RTBNs with the required medical support.
- MCRDSD continues to coordinate with TECOM G-1 and HQMC PPO to source sufficient corpsman to support Recruit Training at MCRDSD and WFTBN in the immediate term, and to submit a TOECR to provide corpsman structure on the MCRDSD T/O to support Recruit Training as a permanent solution.
15. TECOM should develop a recurring working group between itself and both MCRDs to facilitate the accomplishment of mirroring RTOs, executing SME exchange visits, and sharing best practices in accordance with MCO 1510.32F and TECOMO 1513 Ch 1.
TECOM has assigned the Individual Training Branch within TECOM G3 to continuously coordinate and collaborate with the MCRDs. This is done via the following battle rhythm: bi-monthly meetings (virtual), in-person site visits, and a bi-annual in-person symposium with all Entry Level stakeholders. In addition, TECOM informally and consistently communicates with the MCRDs as needed.
16. TECOM should advocate for additional MILCON and FSRM resources to address the MCRDs’ facilities issues. Additionally, both MCRDs should convene internal working groups to identify safety hazards in base facilities and equipment and determine solutions to mitigate the risks generated by those hazards.
- TECOM defers installation matters to MCICOM. TECOM advocates to MCICOM on behalf of the MCRDs for facilities and infrastructure requirements to support Recruit Training.
- MCRD Safety Division staffs and Recruit Training staffs inspect training facilities and equipment daily to assess risks and enact corrective actions.
Transcript:
SPEAKERS
Kelsey Baker, Gunnery Sgt. Steven Banuski, Michael Nichols, Col. Christopher McArthur, Drew F. Lawrence, Lieutenant Commander Nicholas Petikas, Drill Instructor, Full Metal Jacket (1987)
Drew F. Lawrence
This episode contains references to suicide. Listener discretion is advised.
Drill Instructor
You must work hard to strengthen your body. Be proud of yourself and the uniform you wear. Above all else, never quit, or give up. For we or for you the challenge of Recruit Training – the opportunity to earn the title, United States Marine.
Drew F. Lawrence
Marine Corps drill instructors represent one of the most legendary roles in the military. From the 1987 war movie Full Metal Jacket --
Full Metal Jacket (1987)
So you're a killer? Sir, yes, sir! Let me see your war face. Sir? You got a war face? Ah, that's a war face. Now let me see your war face.
Drew F. Lawrence
To their essential job of making new Marines at boot camp in 13 week cycles, the role has become iconic to the public and within squad bays alike. Last month, Military.com and the Washington Post published a joint investigation into the mental health and personal struggles that have afflicted the drill instructor population. With my reporting partner, Kelsey Baker, we found that the high stress environment for drill instructors was bleeding into some of their personal lives, causing depression, suicidal ideations, familial tension sleep issues and increased alcohol use to cope. We spoke to more than 30 service members, their families and superiors. The people we spoke to described routine 90-hour work weeks, though before reforms were put in place by leaders in 2023, those numbers could have been up to 120 hours a week, they said. The job has a physical toll too, according to those interviews: always running to keep up with recruits and duties, constant yelling that is hard to turn off when returning home to one's family, overnight shifts that lead to exhaustion and poor sleep cycles, and guilt or stigma associated with spending time with loved ones or seeking help for fear of letting teammates down or not keeping up with the high expectation of the job. We also reviewed several documents, including a 2019 study by the Marine Corps that said 29 drill instructors ended their lives or openly acknowledged contemplating suicide. The study characterized those findings as abnormally high compared to Marines who have never had that job, and it also said that drill instructors had higher rates of divorce and addiction. Since 2019, at least 7 Marines associated with the drill instructor role died by suicide, according to casualty cards and other records we reviewed. Three of those suicides occurred at Parris Island, South Carolina – one of the service’s two recruit depots – within a few months of each other in 2023, with one of those deaths taking place after the drill instructor was benched for allegedly not reporting peer misconduct. Around that same time, the Marine Corps Inspector General went to Parris Island and found that there was “a climate that fosters ‘surviving’ vice ‘thriving’ ” and a perception among staff that drill instructors’ welfare “is of low priority” to leadership. It also said that personnel felt they were “‘walking on eggshells,’ ‘on pins and needles,’ and generally ‘afraid for their careers.’” That independent investigation by the IG, as well as feedback we got from service members and their families, partially traced that perception to the 2016 death of 20-year-old Raheel Siddiqui, a Muslim recruit who was found to have been abused by drill instructors at Parris Island. The service subsequently cracked down on drill instructors to reduce the cases of recruit abuse and to seek accountability. But the crackdown had another consequence that the IG report partially attributed to a long cycle of on-and-off tragedy and subsequent reforms at the depots. Citing the 2016 Siddiqui case – and even going back decades – it said that personnel assigned at Parris Island felt they were still under a “microscope” and other personnel we spoke to said that perception made the already high stress drill instructor job even harder, leading to mental health and personal struggles among its staff. Last November, a spokesperson for the service acknowledged that drill instructors have “one of the most demanding roles” within the Marine Corps, and outlined “a myriad of mental, physical, psychological and spiritual wellness resources” available for drill instructors and their families. They also characterized suicide as an endering issue across the military and those comments came as the Pentagon is contending with a nationwide shortage of qualified mental health providers. In this episode, we want to tell you a bit more about how we did this reporting, so you’ll hear from Kelsey Baker, who worked as a reporter for Military.com and then as a fellow for the Washington post during this investigation. We also spoke to a former drill instructor, Michael Nichols who held the role in the early 2000s – and despite taking on that job over two decades ago, his feedback mirrored much of what we heard from people we interviewed during our reporting. He described some of those challenges, as well as what he sees as potential solutions to them. We heard from leadership at both recruit depots. They said that the challenges long associated with the drill instructor role have improved over the last two years, citing recent data about reductions in suicide, misconduct for DIs, increased morale and other metrics the service says prove that point. They also outlined current processes for depot staff to receive mental health help. Two sources who have been at the depots since these changes started said things have shifted for the better in some ways. The conversation about DI stressors was overdue, but they added that there are still underlying issues when it comes to mental health stigma, personal and familial stress and a residual sense of being under a microscope when it comes to alleged misconduct. Now, the question is this: As improvements are being made, will those changes fix longstanding structural problems affecting drill instructors — and will the Corps continue to push for improvements? For Military.com, my name is Drew Lawrence. It is March 5th. And this is Fire Watch.
First, we’re going to talk to Kelsey Baker. She’s a reporter and Marine Corps veteran herself. And for over a year, we worked on this story together. We want to tell you a bit about how we approached that reporting. Just a note, these interviews have been edited for clarity and time.
Kelsey Baker
I was on an Iraq deployment in 2018 and I'll never forget being on the phone with one of my friends who was stationed at Parris Island as a junior officer there. She was having the worst time of her life, and I was so worried about her and kind of flummoxed thinking I'm the one deployed who should be probably going through like a harder emotional time. But my friend back home was really in her darkest hour and talking about this with her at the time, it didn't sound unique to her. And so years later, when I decided to become a reporter, what she went through had been on my mind ever since, and I started to dig into it.
Drew F. Lawrence
And tell me a little bit about the reporting process. Where did you start, and what was some of the data that you collected?
Kelsey Baker
I started with the 2019 impacts of special duty assignment, brief study that the Marine Corps had done, and I was just floored to realize that the Marine Corps knew at the time that DI's either die by suicide or have had a suicidal related incident at almost twice the rate of Marines who've never been a DI. By that time, I had also requested the casualty information for all Marines who've died since 2019. When you have that information, it allows you to see who may have died and how many people as a drill instructor.
Drew F. Lawrence
Can you tell me a little bit about your conversations that you had with service members and their families?
Kelsey Baker
For sure, one of the major recurring themes is that this is a job that can seep into all parts of your life. And many people we spoke with described it as the most rewarding and fulfilling part of their career. Lots of Marines want to go to the depot and be a DI and give recruits what they had as a recruit, you know, an adult who truly cares about their well being. But what we also heard is, if you arrive to the depots without a really solid personal foundation, family f oundation, it seems to be a place where things can come to a head, you know, if you don't have that really strong footing. And it appears, you know, for some of the people we spoke with, that was true.
Drew F. Lawrence
And early on in this reporting, we had some trouble getting the Marine Corps perspective on this issue. Can you tell me a little bit about what we asked them, when we asked them, and their response?
Kelsey Baker
So we first reached out to the Marine Corps about the 2019 study in April of 2024 and we wanted to know if any of the recommendations outlined in that study had been implemented to include providing a more robust transition program for DIs leaving the debos. In our reporting, we'd heard from people that even they left, even after they left the depots, some of those personal problems endured. So we asked also if there were any efforts or programs to assess or address the operational tempo, mental health at the depot, substance abuse, things like that. We didn't hear back for a month, and during that time, we also asked to come to one of the depots for a visit and interview leaders. And both of those requests were denied. Then it wasn't until November, also of last year, when we received more robust answers from the Marine Corps. We still didn't get to speak to any leaders, but a spokesperson outlined the enduring military wide suicide problem, resources available to DI's, as well as post-2023, policies that were put in place to help with sleep. But those answers didn't really get into the weeds of the problem that we were hearing about from DI's and seeing in documents. And then it wasn't until after the article came out and with an invitation to participate in this episode that the depots, specifically Parris Island, really provided us data on what they were doing and how things were improving for Marines there.
Drew F. Lawrence
Can you tell me a little bit about some bit about some of the feedback that you got after the article came out?
Kelsey Baker
Yeah, so we heard from people who had left the depot and also people who are at both of the depots now. And basically what they told us was that this is a conversation that's been long overdue for such a hard job, recognizing publicly the toll it takes on people and the stigma around seeking mental health and that they hope is helpful for people who are there and people to come.
Drew F. Lawrence
Michael Nichols is a 12-year Marine Corps veteran. He goes by SSgt. Nichols online and is tied into the military, Marine Corps and veteran community today. After the Marine Corps, he worked for the Department of Veterans Affairs helping veterans process compensation claims. Now, he helps service members and veterans transition into the fitness industry and into civilian life in general. He served as a drill instructor between 2000 and 2003, and we wanted to ask him more about his experience on the job, its challenges, and its rewards. We also wanted to know what he sees as solutions to some of the issues. To start, he told us about the vetting that goes into becoming a drill instructor and that when a Marine submits a package for the drill field, it goes through several layers of leadership before it's accepted. He also touched on his experience at drill instructor school, a program meant to prepare eligible Marines for training recruits.
Michael Nichols
It was extremely demanding, it was extremely professional, and it helped pull out the best in you, right? So you get to a certain point where you think that, ‘man, I'm at that level,’ but then you realize that you're at the bottom of that highest level of expectations when it comes to being the DI. When I went to DI school in 2000, when I checked in it, you got treated like a recruit. You were yelling, you were screaming, you were running. You were banging on hatches, just like recruits do. So it's almost like you spend all this time out in the fleet getting a good name for yourself, and then you go back, you go to drill instructor school – now you're back at the bottom of the barrel, which is good, because that's what leaders do, right? We build people up and we tear ‘em down, and we tear them down and build them back up and DI school was extremely challenging.
Drew F. Lawrence
Nichols also talked about a realization he had during DI school as the program allows in-training drill instructors to shadow platoons of recruits on the drill field.
Michael Nichols
What you don't realize is once you ‘pop’ so to speak, you can't stop. Once you start yelling, that yelling doesn't stop. And I think that the hardest part – one of the hardest parts about the job – is being on your feet all day, yelling and screaming at the top of your lungs and putting in the steps and the miles throughout the day to accomplish the job. Drill instructor school prepares you to go across the street to do that job, but you don't realize ‘man, after three or three to five minutes of just yelling consistently, you don't realize, man, this is going to be extremely demanding.’ …So once I picked up my first platoon, I somewhat had that mindset of, ‘okay, it's going to be extremely demanding, but I just got to focus on doing the best possible job I can as a DI and the rest of it will fall into place there.’ You don't realize standing on your feet for eight hours or 10 hours or 12 hours, you don't realize how much pain is in your joints, those things you can't learn in DI school, because in DI school, you're in class, and then you're out practicing, then you're back in class, so you're up, you're down, you're up, you're down, you go to lunch break, you come back, you got uniform inspection, you got drill. So it's always changing in DI school. When you become a drill instructor, you're on your feet, you're yelling and screaming, and it doesn't stop once you start.
Drew F. Lawrence
One of the other challenges of the job that we touched on includes pressure from other drill instructor peers. Some people we talked to spoke about how they were reluctant to leave the drill field for personal issues for fear of leaving their teammates shorthanded. Nichols talked about the process that drill instructors put recruits through, obstacle courses, swim qualifications, shooting, marching, weapons. And drill instructors and their peers, often in teams of 3 or 4, accompany those recruits through that training.
Michael Nichols
The hard part about this process is the peer to peer pressure. Right? Doesn't matter who you are, what job you did when you served in the fleet, what MOS you come from – the pressure from your peers is probably the hardest part of being a drill instructor, because regardless if you're at optimal levels at 10 and you're performing, or you're at, you know, the least optimal and you're at one, and you're kind of fumbling through that process, the peer pressure amongst your peers to be louder, be smarter, be faster, be harder – it could be extremely demanding, to the point where people struggle to kind of morph through that in and find their way. When you're new, you know, you're trying to prove yourself. Most people show up to this job, they want to do a great job. They want to show up, kick ass, take names and make a great name for themselves. But then you have the peer pressure that comes with that…all these contributing factors that come into play with just being a human right? And then being a Marine and then being a Marine Corps drill instructor, and so the level of expectation just gets higher and higher and higher to the point where some people crack under that pressure.
Drew F. Lawrence
Before this interview, we sent a copy of the 2023 Marine Corps Inspector General independent investigation to Nichols so we could ask him about it. One of the investigators’ findings alluded to an “enduring microculture” within the drill instructor community. It said: “After graduation, new DIs join their first team where many have been subject to “hat hazing,” specifically receiving orders not to eat or drink for long durations or sleep at any time throughout the day. A DI team’s experienced members expect their new DIs to be on deck from “lights to lights” and constantly be “on the recruits” through ceaseless corrections and yelling while simultaneously learning the details of their billet…Only until new DIs earn the trust of the experienced members of their team does this treatment stop; it usually lasts a full recruit training cycle.” While the report noted that attitudes at the depots were shifting away from the microculture at the time of the study, it warned that “a negative microculture will endure to some capacity within the DI community if the [depot] climates facilitate it.” Nichols said that he experienced that microculture when he was a DI 20 years ago.
Michael Nichols
The micro cultures that I remember is you couldn't eat in front of the recruits. You would never drink in front of the recruits. You would never sit down in front of recruits. When recruits saw you, not with your platoon, you were running up and down the drone circuit highway going from point A to point B…From a recruits perspective, you're seeing perfection at optimal levels, like these guys are like animals. But then there's the micro culture of peer to peer pressure, here's a perfect example. When I was a new DI, they would play little games like, you know, ‘hey, I need you to run the medical and go pick up this recruits file and bring it, bring it back to me. So you take off running, you go get it, you bring it back. And you say, ‘Here you go. And they’ll be like, ‘Oh yeah, I need you to go get two more.’ And you go get the two more, and then you come back. And so there's like these hidden training moments where, if you have, if you're an optimistic person, like, naturally, I'm a very optimistic person. I'm a very motivated person. But when you have people messing with you maliciously to train you, there's a part of the training that you expect, but then there's a part of it, like, ‘Man, this is bullshit,’ you know, and and then it starts to put that unnecessary pressure on a drill instructor to be the best that they possibly can when you're playing little games of running back and forth. Look, I will not sit here and tell you I didn't do those games, because we all kind of did it. But those are the pressures that lead to the pressure cooker of either the DI goes off the deep end or the DI goes so far left that they hurt a recruit, and then it becomes a bigger issue.
Drew F. Lawrence
We also talked about enduring stigmas about receiving mental health help in the military. Some of the people we talked to for our reporting told us that the services the Marine Corps offered were not adequate, and that there was a reluctance to seek it out because they perceived it could affect their careers. The Marine Corps told us last week that they were doing a better job at offering those services over the last two years, but Nichols reflected on that perception when he was in.
Michael Nichols
From my perspective, yes, the last thing I wanted to do is let somebody know I needed help. Because we have a tendency of labeling people if they ask for help, then they're considered weak. So there was quite a few times where I needed help, but I was like, ‘There's no way I'm going to ask for it,’ because what I don't want to happen is take a vulnerable moment and put a black eye on me that people don't want to work with me in the future.So it's almost like you're fighting this. You know you need help, but I can't get help, because if I do, and it's to me, it's almost better if we just had somebody from a third party that we could just talk to and just vent, like these mother...you know, we all get at that moment where the pressure cooker and we're ready to explode...We have to find the most commonalities amongst our peers and be there for one another and mentor each other, because it would be super exciting to be like a new DI, here's my here's my guy that's, you know, staff sergeant or sergeant, but he's my mentor, and we meet, and he helps me through the hard times. I think that that would help a lot of people get through a lot of hard times, and I didn't see that on the depot, but I think that that could be one way we can help try to solve some of these issues.
Drew F. Lawrence
In our conversation, he gave us an example of the pressure he had felt while a DI – and how he received help.
Michael Nichols
And I remember, I think it was around my second cycle, I had some allegations. I was very intense with recruits, nothing malicious, just being very demanding on the recruits. And I had, I was at a pivot point where, if I didn't have a mentor, somebody to say, ‘Hey, this is wrong. Here's what you're going to do to fix it. You're going to take a break.’ You know, basically you get sat on the bench for doing your job because you did something wrong, and you get counseling, like I got a non letter of punitive caution, basically, ‘hey, this is not acceptable. You cannot do it.’ …I don't think any drill instructor goes down there to maliciously do something wrong. In the heat of the moment, you get caught up and you get tunnel vision and the pressure of doing a job amongst your peers, and next thing you know, you're getting in trouble, and it makes you want to quit mentally. There was moments where I was like, ‘I'm done. I don't want to do this.’ But then I had some leaders around me say, ‘hey, Devil Dog, what are you doing? Like you're motivated. You went up for the Gunnery Sergeant Nichols Best New drill instructor award. You're on your second cycle. We understand that, you know this is a learning curve, and maybe it's challenging right now, but you came down here for a reason.’ And if I didn't have a mentor, company commander, XO, senior drill instructor – people to step in and help me through that hard time, I could have become a statistic as well, and that's where that fine moment of do I keep putting pressure on somebody to push him through the pain, or do I scale back -and take off the rank off my collar, and have a civil conversation with the person across from me to help them through that. And I think that that's where we struggle sometimes as Marines, to be able to take the rank off the collar and say, ‘Hey, what's going on, man, you know, 99% of the time you're performing, you're kicking ass, taking names, you're awesome. You know what's going on? Man, like, what's up?’ And then if you do that, and you take the rank off, and you have a civil conversation, you realize that they're going through a divorce, or the wife is leaving because he's never home, and there's so many other contributing factors that we just need to be there for one another. That’s what we need. There's always going to be people that do something wrong, they're going to be held accountable. But we have to try to avoid that pendulum swinging so far, high, left and right, and we have to have a mentorship in place, so if and when they have to raise their hand and say, I need help. We need to give them all the resources that they need to get back on track as quickly as possible.
Drew F. Lawrence
In May of last year, after Kelsey and I were denied from going to one of the recruit depots, the Marine Corps offered us an opportunity to submit a by-name list of personnel we wanted to interview. We sent a list of 18 personnel associated with the depots to Training and Education Command, or TECOM, which oversees recruit training. That list included both of the commanding generals of the recruit depots, other leadership, drill instructors, series commanders – who are the officers who oversee recruit training at the ground level – and chaplains. We were told those people did not have interest in being interviewed or unavailable for interview at the time; one of the people we requested to speak with was Col. Christopher McArthur, the commander of the recruit training regiment at Parris Island. He joined us for this episode, and was accompanied by Gunnery Sgt. Steven Banuski, a drill instructor at Parris Island and Lieutenant Commander Nicholas Petikas, an operational psychologist at San Diego’s drill instructor school. And the message that we received, backed up by data sent to us just last week, was that things have improved. You’ll hear from Col. McArthur first, and I will introduce the speakers as I ask questions.
Drew F. Lawrence
So Colonel MacArthur, this first question is for you: In our reporting, we had heard from Marines who had spoken about how disciplinary issues are being handled at the highest levels of command at the depots, which have led drill instructors to feel as though they're under a microscope, adding to existing pressures of the job and creating what some described as essentially a culture of fear, fear of seeking help, losing one's job for perceived disciplinary issues, things like that. And I'm wondering, what your reaction to that perception is and do you expect anything to change?
Col. Christopher McArthur
Well, I'll start off with saying it absolutely has changed. Our drill instructors in the regiment today are thriving 100%. We've created an environment where they can seek help if needed, but also make the best new Marines possible within the standards and the regulations that the Marine Corps set forth for making Marines. So I just don't think that environment exists anymore. Maybe it did in the past. And I'm sure you could find individuals in the past that would probably say, ‘yeah, there's a period where they were fearful of their jobs and the demands that were placed upon them. I don't think you'll find that today at the depot, at least not for the last two years.
Drew F. Lawrence
And how did you change that perception, Colonel MacArthur?
Col. Christopher McArthur
It starts with leadership, putting the right people at the various levels, whether it be company, battalion, regiment depot, that have the mindset to make Marines the right way, the way we've done it for a very long time. You want to coach, mentor and train your firmness, fairness, dignity, compassion, as we say in the senior drill instructor speech. You put those individuals there, and then you empower them to create an environment that then gets the behaviors you're looking for, one of which it's not frowned upon if you seek mental health or you need to take a day off. It's not frowned upon if you don't work lights to lights every day, because we understand the individual Marines readiness impacts our ability to make good new 21st Century Marines. And so I think right now, we have a good team here at the depot that's fully committed to creating that environment. And the Marines we're producing right now are phenomenal. But on top of that, you just see the health of our Marines, officers, enlisted and their families right now are probably some of the highest we've seen in a very long time.
Drew F. Lawrence
I want to jump in here for a moment. I was skeptical about this claim. The struggles associated with the drill instructor roles and environments at the deposit have endured for years, even decades. The 2023 IG report referenced the infamous 1956 Ribbon Creek incident at Parris Island, where a drill instructor marched his platoon of recruits through a swampy creek resulting in the deaths of six recruits and noted that this cycle of tragedy has ebbed and flowed since then. So I wanted data to support this assertion from Col. McArthur on how they turned that cycle around in two years.
In an emailed statement after this interview, Training and Education Command sent me a list of data that they say proves that life at the depots has improved. It said that there were no DI suicides aboard Parris island since 2024 or at San Diego since the end of 2022. At Parris Island, drill instructors who were identified as being “high risk” dropped by 14%. Between 2022 and 2024, the number of DI misconduct allegations at the South Carolina depot dropped from 156 to 56, a 64% decrease and that government and personal vehicle incidents – which some personnel told us was a common symptom of poor sleep – decreased significantly since 2023. It also cited improvements on work-life balance stemming from survey feedback, decreases in reported stress, improvements in morale and reduction in number of hours worked per week.
The 2023 IG report also listed over a dozen recommendations for improvement at the depots, which included actions to eliminate “toxic microcultures,” the root causes of DI misconduct and improvements on feedback, among others. For the most part, TECOM said that the depots acted on these recommendations. One response that stuck out to me was that the policy at Parris Island that requires alleged DI misconduct be routed to the highest level of the depot was still in place. The IG stated that San Diego did not have a similar policy, but at Parris Island, it resulted in frustration from leaders and fueled a "narrative that Depot-level leadership lack[ed] trust in their subordinate commanders,” resulting in backlogged processes and – according to the personnel we spoke with – a perception that DIs were under a microscope. We’ll put the data and responses in the show notes of this episode so you can see them yourself. Back to the interview.
Drew F. Lawrence
And just to follow up on that, you talked about the leadership being an aspect of improving that environment. Have there been any policy changes or initiatives that have been implemented at Parris Island for your depot to improve that well being for drill instructors?
Col. Christopher McArthur
Absolutely. So, in August of 2023 we published what's commonly referred to as the wellness policy. We recognize the importance of sleep, not only to performance, but also mental health, and we directed, you know, no drill instructor can work, really no cadre members can work more than seven days without a 24 hour period off. We limited their work hours to 90 hours a week. Folks can't approve waivers above that, but it's very restrictive. We put in some other things. So that was the number one thing we got after two years ago, myself and our Regimental Sergeant Major got on deck to get the environment going in the way it needed to go. And so I would say, you know, I'm most proud of that initiative, that wellness policy, and today you just see the results. You know, you don't see drill instructors walk around like what I would refer to as zombies...you couple that with leaders who believe in that mindset, and now you got a leadership that's creating an environment, a policy that enforces a standard, and then you get the behavior and the conduct of professionalism, the training that the Marine Corps expects from a place like Parris Island.
Drew F. Lawrence
Lieutenant Commander Petikas, this question is for you. I'm wondering if you could go into specifics about what depots are doing now to help drill instructors with potential mental health issues, alcohol use and family support.
Lieutenant Commander Nicholas Petikas
So I run a psychological assessment program which every single drill instructor when they come to the depot – and this is a program that's run both in San Diego, where I am stationed, and in Parris Island – every single new drill instructor goes through a thorough psychological evaluation. That evaluation consists of first getting consent from the drill instructors to review their military medical records. What we're looking for there is the presence of any kind of ongoing treatment that that instructor may be in, because you don't want to interrupt that treatment to bring them to the depot. We look for any very significant or severe conditions that the drill instructor may have experienced that maybe would imply that it's not a good time for them to come to the depot because they're dealing with a very serious mental health issue. ...Once we determine that the drill instructor's medical record is clean enough to begin training, they arrive at the depot for the start of a three month training and observation period before they hit the recruit training cycle...We ask the drill instructor him or herself, do you feel like this is a good time for you to be here? Do you feel healthy enough to be here? If the answer is yes, then that drill instructor continues with training, and we observe their behavior, their reaction to training, over a three month period before they even begin, their actual training of recruits. For drill instructors that we identify through that battery of testing as being unable to commence their duties, we are able to medically disenroll them, so there's no punitive actions taken against them for their career. It doesn't hurt their career to be medically disenrolled. And what we do is we identify the command that they'll be going back to, and we make sure that every drill instructor has some kind of follow up mental health appointment to address the issue that we've identified. So we're not just identifying the problem and saying, ‘Okay, go back to the fleet and figure it out.’ We are ensuring that those instructors, potential instructors, are getting the care that they need.
Drew F. Lawrence
One common perception that we had heard in our reporting, and it was also echoed by 2023 inspector general report at Parris Island, was that recruit well being was being prioritized over the well being of drill instructors, specifically drill instructors or their surviving families, said that they had to wait weeks to get an appointment, but saw recruits getting them sooner, and that part of the stigma in seeking help was that DI's, when they did seek help, were doing so in the same facilities as recruits, meaning that they felt that their need for help was being known revealed to the recruits. And I'm wondering if you could kind of talk a little bit about that stigma, and also, if there are separate mental health ecosystems for recruits and DIs.
Lieutenant Commander Nicholas Petikas
So there are, and there have been separate mental health ecosystems for drill instructors, and that comes in the form of several things. First off, I'm an embedded provider with DI school, so I actually am in the DI school and I don't work with recruits, right? So I'm compartmentalized, and I'm here [for] just the drill instructors. I may not be able to work directly with all of them, right, because I'm one person, but I am a point of contact to put in a referral for them to seek other aspects of care. So that's the person they can come directly to the embedded provider that's in DI school. They no longer have to go to the mental health unit where the recruits are seen. In addition to that, in San Diego and I believe in Parris Island, we have something called the community counseling program, which is a team of civilian mental health professionals that are here, really for any staff of the depot, but they're here primarily for drill instructors. They provide individual care, they provide marital therapy, they provide early, proactive substance abuse evaluation and counseling. And then they also have a program called the New Family Support Program, and that's for Marines who come to be drill instructors, and they have young children at home, and a spouse is all of a sudden at home, kind of doing a lot of work, and that can be challenging….Wait times for the community counseling program is significantly less than it would be if they had to go through the normal channels of military mental health because the community counseling program is here on the base. Their building is right next to the building that I'm in, and they have wait times of usually a week or less. So it's a really phenomenal program that was implemented directly in response to some of the challenges that you just mentioned…we do a mid tour – so 18 months and end of tour reassessment to make sure that after they have endured the kind of stress of the job, that the drill instructors are still fit for full duty, that their family life is okay.
Drew F. Lawrence
And Gunnery Sergeant Banuski, this question's for you. I had referenced the inspector general report from 2023 and I wanted to read you something from that report. And it says, “the assessment team also received feedback from multiple individuals across the chain of command, to include Navy personnel and civilians, that personnel at the RTR level and below were ‘walking on eggshells’ on ‘pins and needles’ and generally, ‘ afraid for their careers.’ What's your reaction to that and have you, or any of your peers or the drill instructors that serve under you, have felt that way? And if so, why?
Gunnery Sgt. Steven Banuski
Sir, I can't speculate on on others feelings about that, but I know that as a whole, the chain of command from the top down here at the regiment, has always provided us the resources we've needed to be able to do our jobs to the best of our ability, as well as taking care of us in our in our personal, professional lives.
Drew F. Lawrence
Have you, I mean, a lot of the folks that we talked to who serve as drill instructors or series commanders, described many challenges associated with the jobs. Have you experienced any of those challenges? Can you give me an example?
Gunnery Sgt. Steven Banuski
So being a drill shrugger is a very demanding job. I think that everybody here understands that. They understand the level of dedication that it takes to do this, day in and day out, the mental and physical rigors that this job provides, but I wouldn't necessarily be able to speculate on anybody else's experiences or my own, but the Marine Corps has always, always provided us with everything we need to accomplish our goals, day in and day out, regardless of how hard this job is.
Drew F. Lawrence
Col. MacArthur, a question for you about things moving forward, right? Are there any initiatives, pilots, programs that you are looking at for drill instructor mental health, moving forward? And what are they?
Col. Christopher McArthur
We're always trying to improve. We're definitely not perfect. Our campaign plan, per se, since the last few years, has been focused on sort of four things, wellness, mindset, knowledge and accountability. I've already talked about the wellness piece, it’s the wellness initiative. It's instituting a mandatory mid-tour health health check. It's emphasizing energizing the Family Readiness policies and then mindset. So that is about making Marines, training our cadre here to be better, to have the mindset of firmness, fairness, dignity, compassion, to make Marines the right way, right? But also the mindset of, you know, how we treat each other as fellow Marines in a very demanding environment. The knowledge piece continues to be an initiative. We made tremendous improvements – what I would say – improvements to our drill instructor school, both for the enlisted and officer courses that are there. We just got, we just completed, about a month ago, a Wellness Week. It's a whole week of things like emotional intelligence, skills, anger management skills, all kinds of discussions to put our force who work in a very challenging environment – I don't deny that at all – with the additional skill sets they need to thrive and not just survive. The last piece is just that accountability piece, right? It's taking care of each other. It's reducing the misconduct that has sometimes plagued Parris Island, and all that is producing the results of professionalism and the quality of the new Marines, and the quality and professionalism, or cadre, I would say at a pretty amazing level.
Drew F. Lawrence
Gunnery Sgt. Banuski, one thing that we had also reported on was, the family side of this, right. A theme that we had heard was that, you know, given the high intensity aspect of the drill instructor job. It was sometimes difficult for drill instructors to, you know, kind of turn off that mentality as they came home to their family. And I'm wondering if you know, if that was something that you had experienced, and what advice you would give to drill instructors who may be having that difficulty?
Gunnery Sgt. Steven Banuski
So, Col. MacArthur has already touched on this a little bit with the wellness policy. I think that that was one of the most important and influential policies that we've had here over the last few years. Being a drill instructor and being in such a demanding role, having that time off to be able to maybe take my children to school, or be able to do the dishes for my wife, because I have a few extra hours – that makes all the difference to me. You also look at being able to provide, you know, more time for my children not falling asleep as soon as I get home. You know, all those, all those things really impact your life at home, as well as at work. When I know that my wife and my children are okay, I can come to work and perform to the best of my abilities.
Drew F. Lawrence
Colonel MacArthur, you had talked about, you know, talking to drill instructors and making sure that, you know, these programs are sustainable. And from the IG report I want to read again that kind of goes into this, this broader aspect with the depots. And the quote is “The history of Marine Corps training incidents follows a recurring cycle of tragic events that leads to investigations, assessments and calls for improvement, some of which are implemented the short term, only to fall back into a level of complacency in a return, ‘the old ways’ until the next tragic event occurs. And I'm wondering, how do you stop the cycle? How do you make things sustainable so you don't fall back into the ‘old ways,’?
Col. Christopher McArthur
That's definitely a challenging question. It starts with who you screen to come here. Without a doubt, you want the right leaders with the right mindset and the right background to come here. You know, I mean, you could just do the research of Parris Island. I'll just talk about this place, you can definitely see the recurring themes. You know, we got the right mindset aboard here. But the reality is, maybe those that served here three years ago will, those recruits that maybe were in a different environment will come back to be drill instructors in the next four years…First tour drill instructors will come back in a handful of years to be second tours. And that's how the culture comes back. But again, if you put the senior leaders with the right mindset, you can create an environment. Your Marines will adapt to the environment they're in. I firmly believe it. And if we continue to select the right sergeant majors and battalion COs and first sergeants and are picking good company commanders here, it will be sustainable and will break or dramatically reduce the cycle. That's how I think you sustain it. So it's definitely going to be a about a decade investment that the Corps will have to continue to make. But I think it's on the right track.
Drew F. Lawrence
As we mentioned at the top of this episode, we spoke to people who have experienced these changes first hand. And while they acknowledged it was trending for the better, they said there were still fundamental challenges that affect drill instructors and series commanders when it comes to their quality of life. I wanted to know what Col. McArthur thought about that feedback.
Col. Christopher McArthur
No. I mean, I'm not going to say it's all positive, because that's not true. There's definitely folks that – in the regiment today – that have different opinions about the way the drill field should be, about working hours and things like that. I don't know an organization of this size that doesn't have differences of opinions, but I would beg to say it's far and few at this point.
Drew F. Lawrence
Thank you for tuning in to this episode. Thank you to our executive producers, Zach Fryer-Biggs and Jared Keller. Thank you to our guests. If you enjoyed this episode, let us know — and as always, thanks for listening.
